Forum:Nations/Factions
Hazza-the-Fox 04:31, August 29, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Here I will quickly describe what the nations are and what purpose they serve, a bit about the theme of nations, and then list some so far included nations. Ok, as we already know "Nations" like in Red Alert 2, refers to the subfactions of the Allies and Soviets side respecitvely. Each nation is simply an Allied or Soviet side that adds an additional bonus unit. Keeping in mind that the two major sides have their distinct advantages and shortcomings- regarding their differences of capacity to organize sneak attacks, hit-and-run, precision-attack, inaccurate-area-attack, long-range skirmish, short-range heavy assault, siege, distracting, expendable cannon fodder, vital specialist units, aggressive-charge-into-the-fray, line-holding, line-breaking, disruptive, , etc; So far, both sides gets 7 nations each. The role of the nation (and its unit) is to simply complement the existing capabities the faction normally represents- or fills a role that the side generally doesn't normally excel at. In other words, the national unit is intended as an equalizer to counteract their own side's flaws. National units can afford to be very strong or very problematic; They are the kind of units that players would divert more time and energy utilizing than a normal unit, or emphasise much more than other units. They are intended, however, to fill in a very specific role, so they aren't just the sole investment. A national unit can afford to be a little too strong- just so long as no nation effectively counters another nation. In terms of theme- we could use different countries (going to the trouble of picking which nations get what unit) or possibly for the Soviets, differen army corps (though this would be much harder). ---- Defining nations: Allies would definitely get the USA, UK, France and Germany as obvious ones- Canada might fit the Centurion unit (due to similarity to the real-life Trojan infantry armor- invented by a Canadian man). Otherwise, we'd have no trouble picking powerful nations that would be afraid of the Soviet Union. Soviets would obviously get Russia and Cuba. There are also plenty of countries that would side with the USSR- or are also communist to choose from. The tricky part is defining which nation gets what (and not necessarily based on which nations were in Red Alert 2 and what units they were assigned) ---- Nations-by-unit, and what role they serve (note only referring to confirmed ones so far- additional units are up for discussion) ALLIES Mirage Commando/M-COM: stealth ambush and heavy close-range assault units. Also double as Operatives/infiltrators (but cannot swim) Centurion: Armoured heavy infantry with deployable machinegun. Fires continuously, providing suppressive fire (most Allied vehicles have a very slow reload time- so this helps) Battle Fortress: A sturdy, aggressive 'charge-into-the-fray' unit normally typical of the Soviet faction, but virtually non-existent in the Allied arsenal. Brings line-breaking and close-range heavy assault capabilities- and houses infantry that can fight from inside as a bonus. Chrono Siege Relay: Provides distractive fire (in a similar way the V5 does): Teleports bombs anywhere you have sight range, that, upon finishing warping in, will explode. Can be shot at by any ground units (not dogs). Prism Tank: Further compliments skirmishing ability by adding some long-range fire support; also helps for hard-to-reach places (if we can get the beam refraction to work). Hypersonic Bomber*- further accentuates Allied Hit-and-run air tactics. Also provides some area damage in its strike, unlike the normally-precision-based attacks of other allied air units. Grand Cannon- gives a huge defensive boost to make launching sneak attacks and hit-and-runs much easier. Might also add paradrop to the side that gets this gun, simply to cover the lack of an actual unit. SOVIETS Crazy Ivan**- substantiates the Soviet's rather lacking infiltration/assault capabilities and sapping abilities- also good at geurella tactics and leaving mines. Desolator- gives the Soviets a boost in long-range skirmishing, potentially rivalling even sniper units Nuke Truck- gives the Soviets a very potent high-speed assault unit Tesla Tank- generally enhances the aggressive charge-in attack method. Does extreme damage at short ranges. Grinder-Magnetron '''(GriMag for short)- used as an anti-skirmisher vehicle, for picking out those pesky support-fire vehicles (and compliments your own psychic units). '''Mastermind- the ultimate of the slow-heavy assault vehicle and short-range assault vehicle. Also provides excellent distractive qualities by converting masses of enemy units- also a form of suicide unit. Cricket Siege Hopper- the answer to the Soviet's need for some more hit-and-run, siege and skirmishing abilities. A light, speedy, evasive unit. :- * can't decide which name (between Nightwing and Hurricane) is more appropriate for the Hypersonic Bomber, and Prism Gunship respectively. In the meantime, I'm just referring to them by their technical name to avoid confusion. :- ** Decided Ivans were better as the national unit than Pariahs for many reasons. 1-It is easier to balance that an expensive close-range infantry unit not wearing a suit of armor can be buffed a little too much to compensate for his weaknesses, while the Pariahs can afford to be a little too weak (if they are drawing fire, they're doing a good job). This becomes especially important to considering his other abilities like minelaying. 2- considering 1, it is also more balanced IF we managed to get some kind of cloning ability happening. 2 Ivans for the price of 1 is unfair- but as a national it's ok. 2 Pariahs might actually make them potentially threatening. 3-The enemy are kinda already expecting hordes of cannon fodder to draw fire away- they might not be expecting minefields and infiltrators so much- which plays to the Ivan's further advantage 4- theme-wise, Pariahs pose a consistent reminder of Yuri as a nasty, tyrannical dictator as a unit that shows up more often 5- And lets not forget- fans hailing from the (most likely Eurasian) nation we pick for this Soviet faction that will get assigned a baddass demolition man would hardly complain- not quite as much if we associated them with a mindless ex-con suicide bomber! :P That's all I can think of at the moment- what do you think? VolteMetalic 07:49, August 29, 2011 (UTC): First of all, didnt you said you will describe it "quickly"? :P It is all pretty well-thought, nothing else to tell to this. ---- So, the nations, hmm... We need seven or eight. Hmm... I will write now which nations would be most prominent, and what unit they would have. ALLIES United States - Supersonic Bomber - They are the main producers of the aerial forces of the Allied Nations (Raptor, Comanche, Blackhawk) and are the best in development of them. Supersonic Bomber is the latest invention with the highest technology US has in their possesion, along with some more from other countries. Great Britain - Mirage Commando - Britain is a proud country which trains one of the best men in the world, and Mirage Commandos are the best of the best. Also, their advanced technology is a result of extensive development of metamaterials*, which originates right from England. France - Grand Cannon** - France was always more centered for defense and use of long-range weapons. It is no wonder that the biggest gun emplacement is in their possesion, as Grand Cannons are the significant part of their defensive lines, and not only theirs. Germany - Nashorn SPG*** - As the main producer of armoured vehicles, Germany has developed Nashorn as a dedicated tank hunter with greater fire range than Soviet tanks, capable of destroying Maulers with just few shots before they can answer, or even switch to bombardment mode to destroy tanks and structures from even greater distance. Netherlands - Chrono Siege Relay - As a home for FutureTech, Netherlands with great support of Professor Einstein are the main developers of Chronotechnology, and their latest invention is Chrono Siege Relay, which can destroy targets from safety while erasing enemies' existence from the face of the world. Canada - Centurion - Canada has been developing Trojan infantry armor for quite some time, and now when its ready they give it to Centurions, which has a burden of duty towards the Allied Nations on their shoulders; to protect peace and democracy against communism. India - Battle Fortress - Even it is not as technologically and economically advanced nation as others, India is key nation for its location and large population. Because of their close distance to communist China, it is antural they are the creators of the bulkiest unit in Allied Nations; Battle Fortress. Greece - Prism Tank - Inspired by "Archimedes' Solar Ray" weapon from ancient times, Greece has developed the Prism Technology on this basis. Prism Tower, Orbital Prism Array are their creations used by them, but Prism Tank is only theirs and for its high firepower they are proud of it. SOVIETS Russia - Tesla Tank - The strongest of the socialistic republics, Russia has developed Tesla Coils which they also put on infantry battlesuits, thoguht weaker, and now they achieved to them on tank chassis while keeping the same power of the defense. Tesla Tank is a masterpiece of Russian engineering, great at frying infantry and tanks alike. China - Cricket Siege Hopper - China experiemnts with the mechanical legs as propulsion, creating Terror Drones. Fuhrer development resulted in migration of their mechanical leg propulsion, Russian helicopter and their howitzer, created walking helicopter, Cricket Siege Hopper. Libya - Overmind - Thought it is strange, Overmind originates from Libya where Yuri never have been. Local PsiCorps created this behemoth to control the whole cities of Africa, forcing them to support their cause in Yuri's name. Iraq - Desolator - To destroy the Allied Israel, Iraq is willing to use any means, even to contaminate the area by their Desolators. For long time Iraq extensively worked on X-ray weapons, which resulted in many "death areas" in the deserts of Iraq, where nothing can survive. North Korea - Fallout Fort**** - North Korea has well-equipped and trained military, which can fight with anyone in balanced fight. To defend borders against their southern neighbours, Koreans builded Fallout Forts where they can store their soldiers to defend while eradicating enemy infantry with RAD gun. Ukraine - Grinder-Magnetron - Ukraine became a major scientific nation of the Soviet Union, and magnetic technology originates from here. Outfitting a large bulldozer with magnet harpoon and grinding belt created Grinder-Magnetron, dreaful monster which can grinde anything in its way. Georgia - Crazy Ivan - In Georgia, recently conquered by workers' revolution, has been always many strogn people, and many people with passion for explosives. Soviets combined these two factors, and created bomb specialists called "Crazy Ivans", which are a silent nightmares for Allied soldiers on their guard duties, as well as for tank crew. Cuba - Nuke Truck - With a deliveries of nuke bombs from Russia, Cuba in preparations of invasion of USA started placing the nuclear devices on large dump trucks, called Nuke Bomb Trucks, which are driven by fanatics willing to put their lives into foundation of the great socialist revolution. :- * Metamaterials are materials capable of mimicing the background, virtually being a "active stealth technology". :- ** Grand Cannon, I agree that para drop would be fitting, but I suggest that they will be at veteran state, as a "elite force". :- *** Suggestion for Allies :) Tank Destroyer with good anti-armour capability, but horrible against infantry and structures. In this mode has greater fire range than tanks, but not as much as artillery. Can switch to howitzer mode, in which it becomes artillery, the anri-armour stength remains, but is weaker, and is strogner against structures too. In both modes it is worst against infantry (as tank mode uses kinetic shells, as howitzer mode HE shells). Weak armour, fixed gun (so it must rotate the whole tank to fire on target, gun can only go up and down). :- **** Suggestion for Soviets as defense. Fort which can store inside 5-6 soldiers whichc an fire from inside, flamethrowers, radiation and other "bunkerbuster-like" weapons dont works on it. Radiation-resistant and thick. Has a RAD gun on the roof, which can fire into greater distances, but not as much as V5 or Grand Cannon. The gun can be replaced by somethign else, but the other stats should remain. And like France, North Korea would also have para drop with their "elite NKVD" infantry (normal Conscripts at veteran leve). For Supersonic Bomber/Prism Gunship, I think they shoudl stay as they are now. Hurricane Supersonic Bomber and Nightwing Gunship. But maybe Nightwing would be remaned to Spectre, or Spectre Gunship would be present as support power unit, which will bombard the area with howitzer, autocannons and gatling cannons :) That reminds me, can you draw a non-playable units, mainly cargo planes/bombers? Probably Soviet Badger and Allied Hercules, or based on them. And possibly Spectre :D Hazza-the-Fox 11:17, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Lol! Sorry bout that- at least I can assure you I have little left to add now! Firstly, regarding the Supersonic Bomber being the Hurricane and the Prism Gunship being nightwing- I reckon in that case we should keep em as is (Spectre I think is better left to the regular definition of the ship- as I'm certain that if allied engineers took a real-life specter and added laser-based weaponry they'd most likely rename it, after all):P Paradrops definitely SHOULD drop elite-level infantry- good thinking! Nations Allies- Sounds pretty good to me! I was thinking possibly Brazil or Turkey, but India and Greece sound fairly logical too! I actually just realized something that should have been obvious- Allies do not have one single heavy general-range direct-combat vehicle of any sort (but no shortage of long-range skirmish and siege units). So I was thinking it might be interesting if the German heavy tank was simply a very large, heavy tank? Roughly half-way between a Mauler and a Devastator (which itself doesn't really function as much like a tank as a ridiculously powerful and heavily-armoured howitzer). Just a single barrel (fairly longer range than Mauler- but far shorter than Devastators, Prism Tanks etc), but can't attack infanty very much because it's simply too big (same problem Devastator has). But it might have some large smokescreen or defensive deploy function to compensate? That way, by putting something like this into the Allied arsenal, it would be a nice all-round unit to head off enemy charges, rather than an alternative compliment to the generally long-ranged evasive ranks that the Prism Tank serves. Soviets- sounds pretty good too; Cricket I was thinking for China also. I was actually thinking of the Russians getting the Mastermind (insecurity ensuring mind control remains the exclusive knowledge of the capital), Libya getting the nuke truck and Cuba (or an East European state) getting the Tesla Tank (being that it's a more 'daring' and 'drastic' unit that rubs off as something built up from imported components). Yours sound just as good though. Fallout Bunker sounds pretty good (as much as I'm missing my multi-function mini-dominator defense) :P All in all, good ideas I can't really find much to nitpick. VolteMetalic 11:34, August 30, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, probably like this :D Spectre would be a normal gunship like in ZH, also support power. But I dont know if RA3 enables it at all, hmm... I have also thinked about Brazil having Battle Fortress, but I said myself "When its that big unit, how can it be transported from there?" When you mention it, Turkey would replace India, because it is also on the borders with Soviets at Georgia and close to Russia :) And Greece, it was the last one I thought, took me quite long till I decided on that :D Hmm... And cant it be a heavy tank destroyer like Jagdtiger? With all the specifications you listed, only that it will be tank destroyer with fixed gun? So it will have a weakness in turning rate? :) Soviets were really hard. For Mastermind, I have considered Yugoslavia, or Romania (Transylvania), because in last Soviet mission in Yuri's Revenge Yuri had his last stronghold there (Yugoslavia), like he comes from there. But Libya is kind of fixed to be major Soviet nation. Pretty much Crazy Ivan messes it all :D When it will be Pariah it would be like this: * Cuba - Pariah * Libya - Nuke Truck * Yugoslavia/Romania - Mastermind I choose Georgia for Ivan because Ivan is clearly a Russia guy, and Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania or Belarus arent that big, and Mongolia isnt "Russian" at all :D And Tesla Tank is totally Russian, cant see it anywhere else :) Hazza-the-Fox 15:03, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Another issue of the spectre is how we rate a gunship armed with howitzers against a massive floating battery bristling with lasers... Good point with Brazil: Turkey I reckon is a good idea because Turkey has persistently been quite a dangerous country throughout history- and would likely continue to be extremely powerful in an alternate reality; I just realized with the fortress we'd need to think of a reason why it's so hardy compared to other Allied stuff (aside from being extremely big, so the same armor would be added in greater bulk- handy considering its cargo is a small crew of passengers and a tank of napalm) For the Jagtiger- depends. So far the Allies have a lot of evasive attack vehicles (Kodiak) and lightweight hard-hitting fixed-gun support guns (MARS, Sonic Tank, Prism Tank). Theme-wise, it doesn't matter so much that the German vehicle is a true tank or a tank-destroyer- but I think function-wise, it would compliment best as a rough, heavy combat vehicle that can take some hits, than a support piece (being a low-profile tank-destroyer would of course explain why it can take so much enemy fire). Hehe, sorry bout that (Ivan)- but I reckon its for the best he's a national. I always thought even though Tesla is a very Russian-style technology, it could easily have been circulated among neighboring states like Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, who may have quickly attached it to improvised chassis- while Yuri would be too paranoid to allow his center for PsiCorps the be based much further than Siberia. Either way, we can still talk about these. VolteMetalic 15:24, August 30, 2011 (UTC): As a support power unit. While Nightwing is precision gunship, capable of precisely hitting targets, it cant quickly kill large groups of units for the lasers. Howitzer of Spectre, with the autocannons and machine guns, can does more damage on larger areas, for the HE shells, making big explosions. Also fire rate is greater, because prism weapons needs time to recharge, even Nightwing has several projectors. Spectre can constantly without stopping bombard the area. And Spectre can be more armored to withstand incoming enemy AA fire of flaks. As it is Support Power unit, it can be stronger in few ways, because you can use it only after some time :) Yup Lets see... The armor plating is one reason. Now you must count the engines (yes, one is not enough to power it), which are often the heaviest piece of tank (excluding chassis). The compartment for passengers (it can take some room), a reserves of fuel, both for engiens and for flamethrower. The historical flame tanks like OT-34 were not able to "breath fire" for too long, their fuel reserves quickly get thin, so Fortress needs a large fuel tanks for flamethrower, and both engines. And full fuel tank can be very heavy :) Hmm.. Jagdtiger, or Nashorn as I will call it, would serve this purpose. It is a hard-hitter with its larger gun (Jagdtiger had 128mm gun, enough to tear T-34-85 apart, or a bigger guns, howitzers or heavy mortars) and heavy armour can take a lot of hit, even by Devastator. For support, it can be behind Kodiaks and snipe out Maulers and Flak Raiders with one or two shots (or more, depends on their veterancy and how strong the vehicles in the mod you want to be) Yeah, this is a real problem. When it will be in Romania, it could be explained Yuri originates from there, and there are natural psychics. But of course, you cna always create a country in the middle of Siberia, personally lead by Yuri, being it more like a fortress than a country :D